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Illeagle
10-12-2013, 09:32 AM
And I want to know yours. Im not trying to start any "drama" I would just like to hear opinions of everyone on a touchy subject. Dont be afraid to discuss this subject as that is what our "discussion" forum is here for. Im looking for opinions from rookies as well as seasoned vets but please....lets keep it constructive.

Ok now we all know I am a huge proponent of FUN at our events. I mean if you go to an event and arent going away with FUN then the likely hood of you returning is pretty slim "IN MY OPINION". Unfortunately there has been a decline in attendance and even I personally am feeling the affect. Again it is only my OPINION that the difficult courses are part of the problem. I know some seasoned drivers even go away feeling discouraged once in awhile.

So in regards to the courses at our comps. It is my vision that the 10 progress gates should be medium difficulty so almost ALL competitors can finish the course. The difference in who wins and who loses the comp will be in the bonuses and/or driver errors. I personally would like to see it come down to one reverse to decide who wins!! Im SOOOOOO tired of courses that stop you on gate 4 or 5 and do nothing but put you in a bad mood. So let me ask ALL members:

Would you rather have 'finishable' courses and make the bonuses for advanced drivers so no matter what your skill level you can go away feeling like you accomplished something?

OR

Would you rather keep the courses challenging so it keeps the top drivers skills sharp for their run at the national level?

Rcjunky3
10-12-2013, 10:06 AM
any course builder who builds a course with only top drivers in mind are totally missing the point and chasing away the regular competitors with over the top courses. a top contender doesnt necessarily need to always have over challenging courses to keep their skills honed. how many events did anybody see Joel attend last year and he is the current national champ. all these guys go out and practice on their own, know their rigs inside and out and have the skills. if club level course's arent built with finishing in mind that alone will kill club events and attendance

Tapped-out
10-12-2013, 10:15 AM
Myself, I loved the courses at the season opener. I THINK ALL THE COURSE DESIGNERS at comp 1 did an excellent job and wouldn't change a thing. I don't think anyone set up courses to discourage anyone. I think courses were set, were walked over, every gate had a way out, and they were what they were and will encourage them to remain them the same.

Driving all the way to comps to breeze through courses isn't my idea of a comp... but that's my opinion.

AxialNut
10-12-2013, 10:27 AM
You make a valid point Jim, that is why I try to get there early and help set up a course. I pretty much did what you said on my course (tried to make gates takeable, for prgression to the next), then setup progressively harder bonuses farther from gate 10. That way time and distance would play into it (for top drivers), but as people will attest, i made gate 5 too hard (still learning, lol), some guys finished the course.

I would vote like you said make the courses easier (1-10), then put the bonuses on top of Eagle's nests for the national drivers (since we have ALL of them!)

My two cents...

Cpt Nemo
10-12-2013, 11:22 AM
I dont know. Never entered a crawler comp.
But I would go for the milder course with bonuses.
Hmm? Someday I should finish my Shafty projected. Or at lease get started on it.:biggrin:

paystin
10-12-2013, 11:28 AM
I know I didn't make the first comp and I won't be at the second one either (December looks promising though) but a "good" course is finishable by the majority of the drivers in the field. That doesn't mean everyone gets a perfect score but getting through gate 10 with points to spare is still finishing. Make the courses doable for the majority of the drivers and challenge the experienced drivers with bonuses to separate them at the top.

big dude
10-12-2013, 01:34 PM
do-able and challeging are two differant things to me.
I know kacie has more fun when she can finish a course ,yes (a) course (one) course,yeah skill has alot to do with it. for a guy who comes out and wants to get into comping,yes the courses are way to tough.
me, I would like to be able to finish all courses and maybe 1 or two bouneses.
kacie really doesent feel to into it anymore because the fun of being able to finish a course with her 6lb rigis not there anymore.
me, I have always said make the courses more easy for the mass's, because it's the mass's that keep this alive.

somebody wants to really test there skills, go out by yourself and set up some nasty ass courses .

Rcboxer
10-12-2013, 01:50 PM
X2 on what Charlie said.

Just by looking at the scores from last comp tells me that the courses were hard. I don't mind tough courses myself, but if the courses were a little easier to finish, I imagine more people would have more fun. And probably more would stick around to have fun.

big dude
10-12-2013, 02:12 PM
perfect example was last comp, the guy GERNADE his name is chris he had his two boys with him at the last comp,paid his money, yeah his rig is a little out dated well,maybe a bit more than that, well none the less he got up well before sunrise,made the effort to make the 80 mi drive frome azusa to the comp location, tried to run a course could not get through gate 2,at that point almost gave up on the day, well being a trooper and haveing the boys with him thought he would give it another shot on another course, same results.he put that rig away got the scale rig and took a walk with the boys.

you want to know what he told me at work, he said he will never go to another comp again and that he will be building another scaler that will have a mechanical dig, all parts coming from his comp rig.

big dude
10-12-2013, 02:16 PM
one of the reasons i'm here at home and not at the dan diego comp,certain course builders make courses that no one can finish. why should i drive 120 mi to not have fun.

that would be one way! and thats the closest comp .

Rcjunky3
10-12-2013, 06:44 PM
you want to know what he told me at work, he said he will never go to another comp again and that he will be building another scaler that will have a mechanical dig, all parts coming from his comp rig.

exactly what my post was relating to, 1 less supporter participating as well

Tapped-out
10-12-2013, 08:36 PM
I've always been an advocate for putting it to the club for discussions. I admit I feared in the beginning that this thread would just open up so much drama...but I am not too proud to admit how wrong I was on that. LOTS OF GREAT INPUT HERE and it was all done CONSTRUCTIVLY. NOW THAT'S WHAT I CALL GREAT CLUB COLABORATION.

So where do we go from here? Sounds like pretty much all want what is being called "finishable" courses. So, course builders, take note on that when building courses. Let's continue to try and keep a closer eye on making the gates progessable w/a way out and the bonuses be used as spots to challenge the drivers. But drivers must also realize WHAT A THIN LINE IT IS FROM setting up a "do-able" gate to a "oh-Sh@!" gate. Such a fine line (an intended easy, easy course could very easily end up the HARDEST, BUST YOUR BALLS COURSE unintentionally.) We can all say we WANT more finishable courses... the challenge in that is HOW CAN THAT BE GUARANTEED WITHOUT PRE-RUNNING THE COURSES? Having multiple people setting up courses (which I think variety is awesome) it's almost IMPOSSIBLE TO GET CONSISTANCY IN COURSE BUILDING. But honestly, my opinion DOESN'T MATTER...I WANT WHAT THE MAJORITY OF YOU COMPEETITORS WANT.

Why we are on the course set-up discussions, WHAT FORMAT WOULD THE CLUB LIKE TO STICK WITH...
1) A FORMAT SIMILIAR TO LAST YEARS (10 gates and then 5 bonuses after gate 10),
2) THE FORMAT WE RAN AT SEASON OPENER (different valued bonuses throughout the courses)
3) 10 GATES W/2 BONUSES WITHIN THOSE 10 GATES.

As for course format, I'd like to have this decided ASAP (it takes time to get "my balls" in place!!!! :crylaugh:)

Rcjunky3
10-12-2013, 08:55 PM
there is 1 key equation to this problem missing from what i have seen and heard and i really think with the learning curve of the last 2 years, unless that 1 key element is put back into place this can just be a merry go round of courses again. we as a club already went through this growing pain and i dont see why we are at it again. the entire reason a lead course designer was developed in the first place was to accommodate this problem and oversea with a perspective of all skill level of drivers. some people lose site of this when building a course, not saying they do it intentionally, it just seems as they build it they want it more and more challenging which is a good thing. there is just that fine line of national caliber courses or club courses and the last i looked we are a club.

and yes Matt your correct this is a very good constructive thread, lets get some of those guys who felt over challenged back out to compete

Tapped-out
10-12-2013, 09:41 PM
there is 1 key equation to this problem missing from what i have seen and heard and i really think with the learning curve of the last 2 years, unless that 1 key element is put back into place this can just be a merry go round of courses again. we as a club already went through this growing pain and i dont see why we are at it again. the entire reason a lead course designer was developed in the first place was to accommodate this problem and oversea with a perspective of all skill level of drivers. some people lose site of this when building a course, not saying they do it intentionally, it just seems as they build it they want it more and more challenging which is a good thing. there is just that fine line of national caliber courses or club courses and the last i looked we are a club.

and yes Matt your correct this is a very good constructive thread, lets get some of those guys who felt over challenged back out to compete


Are you suggesting a Lead Course Designer be put back in position?

z50king
10-12-2013, 11:11 PM
I would get back into comping if I thought I could have a chance at finishing half the courses with my current rig, which doesn't have a lot of money into it.

I got into scalers because I can drive as I please and not get all nervous with my hands shaking and sweating. I got out of comping for some of the same reasons I left the 1/10 racing scene. I really don't like driving a long way away to get stuck on gate 2 of a course.

I want the courses to be challenging but until they become doable for me, I probably won't put together another shafty rig.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 4

ZoSo
10-13-2013, 07:28 AM
The main reason I Comp is for the hard courses....there is a fine line between easy and hard courses.
Nationals had easy courses even Joel's was finished by most drivers.
If you make the courses too easy you will lose some of the top drivers IMHO
every course had a finisher.... in my opinion...perfect courses
oh by the way, fix my score, I did not finish a course last comp the -22 should be a +22
....and I had a great time! I missed finishing most of the courses by a few seconds...totally my fault...not the course builder.

Tapped-out
10-13-2013, 09:23 AM
The main reason I Comp is for the hard courses....there is a fine line between easy and hard courses.
Nationals had easy courses even Joel's was finished by most drivers.
If you make the courses too easy you will lose some of the top drivers IMHO
every course had a finisher.... in my opinion...perfect courses
oh by the way, fix my score, I did not finish a course last comp the -22 should be a +22
....and I had a great time! I missed finishing most of the courses by a few seconds...totally my fault...not the course builder.


checked out the score sheet & you are correct (adding it up it is +22, but on the score sheet it has a -22). got it fixed!

WAM
10-13-2013, 06:09 PM
A couple years ago we had a Sportsman class for all comers, but with the restriction that you couldn't run both 2.2P and sportsman. Would there be interest in resurrecting that for 2.2P drivers not wanting a frustrating experience? It could be run on the 2.2Shafty courses in the morning, since Shafty runs in the afternoon. No points, no trophies and any class car. A just for fun class. I'd bring an XR out for that.

One rule tho. Can't run your Shafty in Sportsman and then again on the same courses in 2.2Shafty.

Tapped-out
10-13-2013, 07:04 PM
The main reason I Comp is for the hard courses....there is a fine line between easy and hard courses.
Nationals had easy courses even Joel's was finished by most drivers.
If you make the courses too easy you will lose some of the top drivers IMHO
every course had a finisher.... in my opinion...perfect cours

X2

Tapped-out
10-14-2013, 10:31 AM
A couple years ago we had a Sportsman class for all comers, but with the restriction that you couldn't run both 2.2P and sportsman. Would there be interest in resurrecting that for 2.2P drivers not wanting a frustrating experience? It could be run on the 2.2Shafty courses in the morning, since Shafty runs in the afternoon. No points, no trophies and any class car. A just for fun class. I'd bring an XR out for that.

One rule tho. Can't run your Shafty in Sportsman and then again on the same courses in 2.2Shafty.

I'm ok with this idea.... Since the courses are going to be built anyway might as well.....Or just run 2.2 novice class with 2.2pro class.
Novice class runs gates 1-5 + bonus gates. Must run any bonus gates after gate 1 & before progressing gate 5.

big dude
10-14-2013, 12:07 PM
All that needs to be done is make the courses a bit more do able for the not so talented drivers.

Thats all.

Slowroller
10-14-2013, 06:22 PM
I remember my first comp in 07, I couldn't get through the first gate and there was no way to take it. I had a bender chassis and a tall jeep body, everyone walked it but me. I didn't quit because it was to hard, I went home and researched why my rig sucked and rebuilt it, then practiced when ever I could because I knew comps were like a sporting event and you had to work hard to be good. I do think there is a fine line of being too hard and yes it does feel great to finish a course. I'm sure there is a happy medium or formula we can come up with.